Curse

Chthon · Nov 30, 2008, 06:13 PM // 18:13

I've been meaning to post these for awhile, but just haven't gotten around to it. Almost a year ago now, I set out a bounty for a "good" mesmer build, meaning one that "does something unconditionally useful in PvE, and does it at least as well as all other classes." While none of the responses produced a build that met my criteria, some of them were quite insightful and produced avenues of inquiry that eventually lead to a couple I'm satisfied with.

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AP-AE-CoP

This is a damage build. It spams armor-ignoring damage in enormous packets with an enormous AoE radius. It also interrupts a little.

[build prof=Me/A name="AP-AE-CoP" fas=8 ill=8 ins=10 dead=10][Assassin's Promise][Leech Signet]["By Ural's Hammer!"][Fragility][Arcane Echo][Cry of Pain]["Finish Him!"][Ether Signet][/build]

Runes: The runes don't really matter. Use minors. Use a bigger illusion or inspiration rune if you like.

Insignias: Insignias only matter a little. I suggest radiant so that you've got enough energy to run a spear+shield. Otherwise, use whatever insignias you want with a caster weapon.

Gear: Spear+Shield set; +15e (or +20e) inspiration staff; longbow/flatbow (pulling); dual +15/-1 "high set" (optional, for those with trouble managing energy)

Usage:

Pick a target considering its location relative to the other monsters you want to hit with AoE and whether you'd like to interrupt it.
Fragility your target, AE, Ural's Hammer during AE, CoP, CoP, AP, Finish Him.
Now pick a new target. Fragility, Ural's Hammer during Fragility, CoP, CoP.
Everything should be dead. If something isn't, find a low-health target (if your current target didn't die, use it), AP, Finish Him, and repeat the dual-CoP spam until everything is dead.
Mix in Ether Signet to regain energy when needed and Leech Signet to interrupt and/or regain energy. Note: Don't use Ether Signet immediately after AE; instead, switch to your staff, CoP, then switch back to spear, Ether Signet.

Variants:

Ether Signet can be replaced by any high-yield, high-recharge inspiration skill. Signet of Recall and Auspicious Incantation both work well. Though I prefer Ether Signet for the way it allows you to backload your cast time. (Note about Signet of Recall: The energy degen does NOT stack, but the energy gain does. So you can stack up multiple copies via AP with no penalty on the additional copies!)
Ural's Hammer can be replaced by any (PvE) skill you like. If you've got a team that's bad it following targets and finishing off a monster that survived Finish Him, Vanguard Assassin is a good alternative. Bear in mind that anything you put in this slot is costing you a large chunk of damage off your main CoP spike.
Leech Signet can be replaced with anything you like.

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Mandragor-in-a-Can

This is a primarily damage-prevention build with some capacity for damage. It maintains permanent blind, crippled, and dazed on an entire mob; then, once the mob is nullified, it adds deep wound, cracked armor, and some direct damage to help kill them.

[build prof=Me/E name="Mandragor-in-a-Can" fas=7 ill=5 ins=11 ear=11][Extend Conditions]["You Move Like a Dwarf!"][Ash Blast][Cry of Pain][Phantom Pain][Shrinking Armor][Drain Delusions][Technobabble][/build]
(Note that the proper description for Extend Conditions is: "Spread all conditions from target foe to all foes near your target. The durations of those conditions are increased by 5..81% (maximum 30 seconds).")

Runes: You need a Superior Inspiration in an inspiration headpiece to reach 15. Minor Illusion and Fast Cast.

Insignias: Doesn't matter.

Gear: +15e, 10/10 inspiration staff (or dual 10/10 wand+focus); longbow/flatbow (pulling)

Usage:

First, shut down:
Decide what you fear more, casters or non-casters, and shut them down first. Then shut down the other.
- For non-casters: YMLAD, Ash Blast, Extend. Now everything is blind and crippled. Periodically change targets and Extend to keep them that way.
- For casters: Technobabble, Extend. Change targets and Extend on the recharge. You can keep the dazed going until Technobabble recharges (assuming 4+ sec dazed). You MUST change targets every time, since the dazed duration is not extended on the target you transfer from.
Second, damage:
Judge the mob to decide whether deep wound or cracked armor will hurt them more (usually deep wound). Use a chain with one, then the other.
- Phantom Pain, CoP, Drain Delusions, Extend.
- Shrinking Armor, CoP, Drain Delusions, Extend.
(Drain Delusions regains energy.)

(Why no Finish Him? Because it often kills its target before you get a chance to Extend.)

Team: Although this build can stand alone, it can also benefit significantly from teammates who can cause conditions.

Your best friend is a BHA ranger. The looong daze on BHA turns the scramble to keep Technobabble's daze going into a fire-and-forget affair. If you've got a hero, bind their BHA key to your keyboard; if you've got a human, ask them to call their target.
A minion bomber with JB and DN creates quite a bit of incidental bleeding and poison. Degen may be an inherently weak mechanic, but it adds up to decent pressure if you Extend that incidental degen to permanently cover an entire mob. Also, the minions swinging away randomly do a whole lot to make sure the daze stops all the enemy casters.

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(On a sad note, I declared Terraban the winner of the 10k bounty, but I don't think he plays anymore, since he never collected it.)

(Happier note: Anyone who likes these builds can feel free to post them to the wiki so long as (1) you do a decent job with spelling, grammar, formatting, etc., and (2) credit is given. As far as I know, Cathode Reborn and myself started using AP-AE-CoP independently around the same time. The basic idea of a Mandragor-in-Can using Fevered Dreams was Terraban's; I refocused the build around "important" conditions and later transferred it over to Extend Conditions after it was buffed.)

[Edit: A big THANK YOU to the mod(s) who fixed the GWBB bug that was blanking out this post.]

LemonLame · Dec 07, 2008, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Cool! These builds are nice, keep up the good work.

The Meth · Dec 08, 2008, 03:22 AM // 03:22

The first one is kinda meh. But thats more just because I find CoP boring then the build being bad, its great at damage but IMO not mesmer-ish

The second one looks quite interesting, though I wonder how often the nearby range is actually good enough to contain all the enemies you want hit.

Chthon · Dec 08, 2008, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

The first one is kinda meh. But thats more just because I find CoP boring then the build being bad, its great at damage but IMO not mesmer-ish

You're right on both counts. The damage is insanely high. And it does not at all feel like playing a mesmer.

(Then again, most anything that feels like playing a mesmer tends to suck badly in PvE....)

Quote:

The second one looks quite interesting, though I wonder how often the nearby range is actually good enough to contain all the enemies you want hit.

Quite easily. They usually start out all balled up, and you can have the initial crippled (and blind) on them before they can spread out. That keeps them in place pretty well.

In the event that they do get spread out, no biggy -- Extend is so spammable that you can just chain two Extends from A to B then B to C to cover everything.

Worst case scenario is that the melees get out of range of the casters, so you end up juggling conditions on two groups at once. It's not hard to manage, but you will definitely appreciate a BHA hero providing a long enough daze that you can leave the casters alone for a few seconds.

The Meth · Dec 08, 2008, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

In the event that they do get spread out, no biggy -- Extend is so spammable that you can just chain two Extends from A to B then B to C to cover everything.

Yeah, now that you mention that extend does have insane spamability. You are tempting me to finally make a PvE mesmer now.

Zodiac Meteor · Dec 08, 2008, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Instead of [Extend [email protected]] I would bring [Fevered [email protected]] for the BIGGER AoE Blind and can keep getting conditions. Or, bring A [searing [email protected]] hero to put some AoE fire. [Blinding [email protected]] wouldn't hurt to. With [extend conditions@-20] Bring a ranger with [Broad Head [email protected]] also [Burning [email protected]] I'm going to go play it! I'm getting on my mesmer!

Chthon · Dec 09, 2008, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Instead of [Extend [email protected]] I would bring [Fevered [email protected]] for the BIGGER AoE Blind and can keep getting conditions.

If you read this thread all the way through, you'll see that two prior revisions of this build used Fevered Dreams. I made a considered decision to change to Extend because:

1. For all practical purposes, the AoE is not smaller. Between mobs' initial tight formation, the mass crippled that should land within the first couple seconds of aggro, and your party's melees moving in and engaging/bodyblocking the (crippled) melee monsters, the mobs usually stay with Extend's radius. And, once again, even if they do get out, just chain Extend twice to cover everything.

2. Extend is significantly more flexible than Fevered Dreams.

With Fevered Dreams, you are tied to one monster and you have to get it right on that monster. If the monster gets Fevered Dreams removed, or dies before the condition stack is finished, or already has a condition you're trying to stack, or doesn't get a condition because a skill got interrupted, or moves out of range of other important monsters, or dozen other things, then your condition stack fails and you have to wait for Fevered Dreams, plus all your condition-causing skills, to recharge before you can try to get the stack going again.

Extend, on the other hand, works on any monster. It's like having Fevered Dreams on the entire mob, only you get to see if the condition stack worked before having to commit to your target.

3. Extend can manage infinite daze (with effort) all on its own via Technobabble; Fevered Dreams can't. If you add a BHA teammate, Extend gets you infinite daze after coordinating just once with the BHAer; Fevered Dreams must coordinate every time.

Quote:

Or, bring A [searing [email protected]] hero to put some AoE fire.
...
[Burning [email protected]]

Not really worthwhile. It's so easy to pick up bleeding and poison from builds that aren't dedicated to that purpose that I can't justify dedicating a build (or even an elite skill) to generating another 3 degen via burning.

Quote:

Bring a ranger with [Broad Head [email protected]] also [Burning [email protected]]

If you've got a ranger with two elites, then, yeah, bring em.

Quote:

[Blinding [email protected]] wouldn't hurt to.

Is redundant.

tauntedflail · Dec 09, 2008, 10:55 AM // 10:55

I dont think the first build works with the suggested useage.
If you use arcane echo before urals hammer, then when you use urals hammer itll cancel out arcane echo

Smarty · Dec 09, 2008, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by tauntedflail

I dont think the first build works with the suggested useage.
If you use arcane echo before urals hammer, then when you use urals hammer itll cancel out arcane echo

Read the skills and the usage more carefully. Ural's Hammer is a shout, to be used during the casting of Arcane Echo, so no it won't cancel it.

*

Nice builds Chthon, not at all mesmery, I'll save them and try them out when I next want a bit of variety. Thanks for the thread.

kostolomac · Dec 09, 2008, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Just one question: Why Ural's hammer?
Otherwise both of the builds are very nice , but since I am a BIG DOMAGE person I'll more likely play with the first build

tauntedflail · Dec 09, 2008, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Read the skills and the usage more carefully. Ural's Hammer is a shout, to be used during the casting of Arcane Echo, so no it won't cancel it

Ahh, my bad. I get you.
Nice builds.

Chthon · Dec 10, 2008, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Just one question: Why Ural's hammer

Oops. I failed to note that the skill has been changed from what the skilltag says. The correct description is "For 7...9 seconds, you have +2 Health regeneration and do 25% more damage. This lasts 7...9 more seconds for each ally within earshot who is under 50% Health." That makes it an unconditional 25% damage boost, and AP means you don't have to care about the duration-to-recharge ratio or allies under 50% hp silliness. There's times when I'd use something else, but for general purposes I can't think of anything that beats an extra 50 armor-ignoring AoE damage every cycle.

kostolomac · Dec 10, 2008, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Thanks for explaining.

Vazze · Dec 18, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Theoretically the AP build has 70 DPS on the target and ~35 DPS AoE. The on-target DPS is ok (AP builds have >70 DPS for nearly all professions) and the ~ 35 AoE DPS is really nice. However I doubt that anybody can get close to these numbers. The build has serious energy needs at max DPS (12-18 pips!!!!) and far too many constrains to be reliable (AP, hex for CoP, ES, AE, they are all conditional). Hexes can be removed, target can be killed before you use AP, AP triggers before you have a chance to finish ES, you run out of energy after AE, etc. All of this will happen in longer battles, and they affect DPS.

I am not saying it is bad or anything, it is a really nice build, but you have to watch what you are doing and even then it won't be reliable. I like Ural's Hammer, I think it is a great skill for AP builds.

Chthon · Dec 23, 2008, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

Theoretically the AP build has 70 DPS on the target and ~35 DPS AoE. The on-target DPS is ok (AP builds have >70 DPS for nearly all professions) and the ~ 35 AoE DPS is really nice. However I doubt that anybody can get close to these numbers. The build has serious energy needs at max DPS (12-18 pips!!!!) and far too many constrains to be reliable (AP, hex for CoP, ES, AE, they are all conditional). Hexes can be removed, target can be killed before you use AP, AP triggers before you have a chance to finish ES, you run out of energy after AE, etc. All of this will happen in longer battles, and they affect DPS.

I am not saying it is bad or anything, it is a really nice build, but you have to watch what you are doing and even then it won't be reliable. I like Ural's Hammer, I think it is a great skill for AP builds.

Well, I never said that it's a build for beginners. Heck, I'll even admit that it's not something I can do well if I'm feeling a bit sleepy or otherwise half-assing it. But I can say that, when I'm on my game, I can run this build more than well enough, so I assume there's a fair number of folks here who can as well.

As for your concerns:

Energy isn't really an issue. AP + your inspiration skill of choice is essentially infinite energy. I prefer ether signet, but you can make it work with signet of recall, auspicious incantation, ethereal burden (shift attributes to illusion), and probably a few other skills too.

AP getting removed shouldn't be an issue, since your target should die from Finish Him faster than it can be removed.

Fragility getting removed is only a minor issue. Most mobs lack hex removal. The few mobs that do have hex removal don't have much. You should be able to deal with them with leech signet, or draw out the removal and just reapply Fragility 5 sec later, or bring a second hex (or even AoE hex) to draw out the removal. In the uncommon event of heavy hex removal, you may need to bring an interruption hero or a hero with enough hexes to overload the removal.

The target dying too early shouldn't happen often. If it does, that's probably because you're being an idiot and trying to bring Discordway heroes without realizing that killing that one monster faster is making you kill the overall mob much slower. Assuming you're not being an idiot, when your target does die too soon, you should have no shortage of monsters with low enough hp that you can off one with Finish Him and get rolling again.

Except for rare cases when AP goes off while ES is casting, it's your fault for not noticing and casting ES when you shouldn't. If it's a problem for you, try Signet of Recall or Auspicious Incantation instead.

If you run out of energy after AE, switch weapons. I usually run my spear+shield set and jump up to a 15e staff if I'm short after AE. If you're not comfortable with that, run the staff as your normal set and jump up to a dual +15/-1 "high" set.

Most importantly, there are no "long battles." You do enough damage to kill the entire mob in two cycles, three for some of hard mode's nastiest critters. You've only got to get the chain right twice, then it's over. If your party managed to screw up the aggro and a few monsters got outside of CoP's ridiculous range, then, well, yeah, you're not exactly well equipped for mopping up, but (a) you've got seven other party members to help with it, and (b) you already killed the bulk of the mob, so you're party is in no real danger if you mess up your combo during the mop-up phase.

IXI Nine IXI · Dec 23, 2008, 07:27 AM // 07:27

I love the mandragor build. Easily my favorite mesmer build for PvE. Thanks for sharing.

Malician · Dec 27, 2008, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Being that all of these spells have a short cast time, could an ele perform the mandragor build passably?

MegaVolti · Dec 27, 2008, 12:06 PM // 12:06

[Wandering Eye][Clumsiness][Lyssa's Aura][Frustration][Cry of Pain][Arcane Echo][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Pain Inverter]

Should meet your criteria. Awesome AoE DPS and tons of interrupts with good additional single target damage through Frustration. No other class can do that with their own skills.
Other classes can run the Mesmer skills but won't do that much damage (Illusion 16 vs 12) and will cast considerably slower (Fast Casting 9 vs 0), which is quite a big advantage for the native Mesmer.

Chthon · Dec 27, 2008, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malician

Being that all of these spells have a short cast time, could an ele perform the mandragor build passably?

Passably, yes. But without a 15 spec inspiration attribute you can't keep the dazed from technobabble rolling until it recharges. If you've got a BHA character in your party, no problem. If you don't Fevered Dreams might be worth considering for the ele primary. (In which case Finish Him replaces Phantom Pain and Shrinking Armor, GOLE replaces Drain Delusions, and you have a free slot for something.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

[Wandering Eye][Clumsiness][Lyssa's Aura][Frustration][Cry of Pain][Arcane Echo][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Pain Inverter]

Should meet your criteria.

1. Uh.... whose criteria?

2. With nothing to recharge CoP, this build looks flat out inferior to any variant of AP+CoP, as well as any variant of GoR+CoP.

MegaVolti · Dec 28, 2008, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. Uh.... whose criteria?

2. With nothing to recharge CoP, this build looks flat out inferior to any variant of AP+CoP, as well as any variant of GoR+CoP.

1. These criteria:

Quote:

Almost a year ago now, I set out a bounty for a "good" mesmer build, meaning one that "does something unconditionally useful in PvE, and does it at least as well as all other classes."

Both damage and physical shutdown are unconditionally useful in PvE, no doubt about that.
That build will out-damage any SF Elementalist out there. Only your AP-CoP-build can come close to it in damage, as well as Necromancers with SS. But these two don't offer any kind of melee shutdown (maybe weakness but that doesn't reduce skill damage, which makes it quite bad as shutdown).
There are also other possible physical shutdowns like [[Blinding Surge] or [[Ebon dust aura] + [[volley]. While probably even better in taking physicals out then my build, these can't even come close to the damage my build provides.
So I conclude that my build does something unconditionally useful and it does it better then any other class: It's the best way to deal huge amounts of damage while also protecting the party from physicals.

2. Your assumption that AP would be superior is imho wrong. The main damage is not done by CoP but by [[Wandering Eye] and [[Clumsiness] (in combination with [[Frustration], it works perfectly with them), which also take care of the damage prevention (interrupts). You can constantly spam your skills even without the recharge from AP. CoP is just a small boost to that build, nothing more. So there is absolutely no need for AP. A wand and focus with 20% chance of half skill recharge for Illusion spells is mandatory of cause to really spam the spells.
Oh, and [[arcane echo] is not meant to be used for CoP. It's for [[Wandering Eye] if you want more sure-fire AoE damage (since it triggers in a larger range when the one target attacks) and for [[Clumsiness] if you need more sure-fire physical interrupts (since its range is smaller but it triggers on individual attacks, resulting in more interrupts).
You can of cause swap the elite for AP if you want it. You can also swap [[Pain Inverter] for any PvE skill you like, there are lots of good ones (like [[finish him]). There always have to be minor adjustments to the area you play in, there is no such thing as "the perfect build for anything" in Guild Wars. However, I posted the version that should work best in most areas.